Mikkel Svold (00:08):
Hello, and welcome to Behind Clean Lines, a podcast by NGI, where we focus on hygienic design and how we can build for a more food safe future. Today, or actually in the previous episodes, we've been looking a lot on what's been on the floor. We've been looking at the floor. We've been looking at people flow, which obviously is on the floor somehow, and we've been looking at things that stand on the floor. But something that we have absolutely missed is what is above everything, because what's above can also fall down, and that is what we are talking about today.
(00:41):
In the studio, on an online link basically, with us from Texas, US, we have Steve Voelzke. Did I get that right?
Steve Voelzke (00:48):
Voelzke, but that's ...yeah, yeah.
Mikkel Svold (00:51):
Voelzke. Steve Voelzke. I was like, I need to really concentrate here. No, Steve Voelzke-
Steve Voelzke (00:55):
No, that's fine.
Mikkel Svold (00:56):
... with us from Robroy Industries, and really good to have you here.
Steve Voelzke (01:00):
Yeah, thanks, Mikkel. Thanks for having me here.
Mikkel Svold (01:03):
I think just real quick, do you see the same pattern as I've heard from others in your industry, that the focus is increasingly on hygienic design when building food factories? Or is it status quo from your end?
Steve Voelzke (01:19):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that we're much more aware today than we've ever have been about food hygiene. And I think it just starts in regulation and this evolution I think that has happened in how do we become cleaner and safer in our environments, and just because there's more knowledge in this space.
(01:40):
And so I think that there's definitely ... the trend is good, but now it's harder to get better. And so we have more and more to learn obviously. And so it's exciting times because we're making our world safer and doing a lot of great things.
Mikkel Svold (01:57):
And actually, from what I hear, you are actually representing, well, I'm going to say it, but a marginalized part of building a plant, or at least an add-on, something that you tend to remember at last minute. How do you feel that spillover from the trend in the industry to what you're doing, and maybe just put three words on what is actually your delivery to your clients?
Steve Voelzke (02:28):
Yeah. So we play in the infrastructure space, primarily in the electrical infrastructure. And so that's usually installed after the equipment is installed.
Mikkel Svold (02:41):
Gotcha.
Steve Voelzke (02:42):
There's the electrical infrastructure that's on the equipment. But even with the equipment we've found as we go to OEMs and do audits and look for hygienic design, we find that people do a great design on the products or the equipment. They really consider all the operating states. They really consider a hygienic design. How can we clean this better? How's it going to work different in operational environment versus sanitary environment?
(03:09):
And then they put it out in the shop and then the electrician wires it and kind of defeat some of the purposes of what was actually designed in the equipment. That same thing-
Mikkel Svold (03:18):
What do you mean by that?
Steve Voelzke (03:20):
Well, sometimes they'll put slides on to basically slide out maybe something so that it can be cleaned, whether it's a safety issue or whatever. And they'll run a piece of conduit or a wire tray right next to that slide so you can't get it out now. Because it's an afterthought, it's not part of the modeling, it's not part of the design review.
(03:41):
And so we're seeing that we got to take in account everything that happens. So it goes all the way from the machine equipment design, but then, like you were saying, then it goes to the construction site. So you have all the pieces of equipment that we've designed and we've had these best practices and we've had this evolution, but then construction happens. And the same kind of thing happens at a greater level when we're connecting everything together. And a lot of times that's overhead, like the discussion that we're having today.
Mikkel Svold (04:13):
The construction site, the building afterthought, and the equipment, on the equipment side, are there differences in how it's approached or is it just always an afterthought that somehow needs to be installed when the design's finished?
Steve Voelzke (04:31):
Yeah, interestingly enough, I think it's always been an afterthought because in our 3D models or our equipment design, we don't model the electrical a lot of times, we might can put a control panel, but we don't model the actual wire running. And so it's just not part of the design review early on in the process.
(04:51):
And then in the facility, it's the same way. We might even model a facility, but we don't model every piece of wire tray that's running or even piping or maybe the larger areas or the HVAC side, but we don't model the smaller stuff, which by the way is just as much risk because it's overhead. I mean, you've heard of stories ... We have people in the US, we have one particular here in Texas that is one of my favorite ice cream people, that several years ago had a listeria breakout, and that company is not the same as it was at one time.
(05:28):
So it's this overhead infrastructure that sometimes I think we don't think about. And I think there was a study done in 2018, Food Safety did a study, and 15% of those contamination came from overhead conditions.
Mikkel Svold (05:49):
Why is it that it's not part of the blueprint with the equipment, the buildings, why is it not part of that when it account for such a large percentage of incidents?
Steve Voelzke (06:01):
Yeah, I think it's when it happens, so during ... And I'm going to push this now more to the construction phase. So because it's not part of the original consideration, it's not being part of the design because this may be a smaller component and we don't just model those plants to that level. People are just thinking about it after the fact or not thinking of it at all.
(06:23):
Now I will tell you that a lot of the modern designs are coming much more into interstitial spaces, where they actually build a space above production for the infrastructure and then they come straight down out of that space.
Mikkel Svold (06:38):
Oh, so you have a hollow floor or something like that?
Steve Voelzke (06:41):
A hollow ceiling.
Mikkel Svold (06:42):
Yeah, that was what meant Yeah.
Steve Voelzke (06:44):
Yeah. And the benefit there is that a lot of that infrastructure is above the ceiling and then the runs are straight down as opposed to going horizontal over the equipment. Frankly, it's about designing rules around how you might do things. If you're running something horizontal, you're probably doing something wrong, especially if it's above. Now, if you're running horizontal and you're dropping it down below the conveyor or below the food area, then it's a different consideration.
(07:14):
And then the other thing too is, the other thing that we found is overhead ... There's another challenge with overhead, and that's that issue of when you expand. So a lot of times the contamination is a physical contamination because somebody's expanding something and drilling a new hole or putting a new thing up in the infrastructure. And from that standpoint, it's physical contamination that comes down into machinery and equipment. Of course, they do sanitation, but guess what? Stuff still shows up.
(07:45):
And so it's about also thinking about the design so that you can actually plan for expansion. And how do you do that without having to modify to the nth degree or remanufacture in the ceiling.
Mikkel Svold (07:59):
Come to think, would it be a better approach to seal the equipment from above so the equipment has its own roof, so to say, so you don't have to think about what's above? Or is that more expensive?
Steve Voelzke (08:15):
Well, I mean, that's really what ... In the US we have IMP walls and IMP ceilings, which creates that space that we talked about. And so it's what they call building envelope. So they do make a building inside the building, and that is to house those areas that are more prone to potential contamination. And making that space cleaner and cleaner, and making sure ...
(08:44):
Because it goes beyond just making a space inside of the space, it's how can we make that space cleaner? How can we make the products within there more cleanable? How can we do high-pressure wash down? How can we use environmental ratings? How can we do these things to make it all work together for a cleaner environment?
Mikkel Svold (09:05):
We talked about this a little bit before turning on the mics, but are there any standards that cover this area already or is that a neglected area when you look at the EHEDG standards, the FDA standards, all those?
Steve Voelzke (09:20):
Yeah, so there are. The European standard, EHEDG, like you just mentioned, we use that standard to do some of our design on our product because it's a very mature standard, and I think the Europeans have done a great job at really cleanly defining, "This is exactly how you do it." And so we really dug into that standard, learned a ton. In the US we have some special considerations where we have best practices, and then we have association member type companies, like 3-A that's really for the dairy industry, we have BRC for the bakery industry, and so we have a lot of these that ... The Meat Institute also has a standard, and all those are best practices.
(10:09):
And then we have FDA that is regulation. And the FDA focuses pretty widely because it's tried to cover ... and the USDA by the way. But it tries to cover a wide range of conformance, and so it's not as specific as a standard as EHEDG. And so it's a collection of different things that you put together to find the best practices. And there's a lot of similarity between all of them, but there's distinctions. It's almost like if you could pull them all together and have them all get together, it would be great because I think the industry really embrace some new standards.
(10:49):
And then we're also finding that in the US, the standards don't address the area that we're talking about nearly as much. The conduit, the smaller facility side is really lacking some opportunity to be able to determine whether that's really a sanitary installation or not. So there's work to be done in this area, but we're getting down to that point where we're really focusing on the smaller elements and we're discovering that there's risk there as well.
(11:17):
And so I think there's opportunity to work within standards, and as an industry start driving those standards to understand how can we take electrical standards in the industry, combine them with hygienic standards, put those together and actually create a new product or a new solution that's really trying to accomplish the job that we're trying to accomplish, the job to be done, which is a cleaner and safer environment.
Mikkel Svold (11:44):
I wonder, when you talk to both brand owners but also OEMs out there, do you find that overhead and production installations, do you find that it gets the attention that it deserves, or is it something that needs more attention?
Steve Voelzke (12:05):
Yeah. I think it needs more attention. It needs more attention in terms of educating when it happens. Construction is challenging environment, especially in the US right now because we have so much going on and our job market is so tight. They say that we're about 20% understaffed in construction jobs, and there's a 25% turnover.
(12:33):
And so when you're in that state, if you're not doing education real time on the construction site, making sure that you're doing the right things, you're going to miss something. And usually that electrical side of the construction is at the end of the project, so guess what? Everything's late. Everything's like," Hey, we got to get this running." So the pressure of the project sometimes during the more critical times is what's getting in the way. And so we just ... education a little bit more on that side is what we focused on.
(13:04):
And then also, I think equipment designers, product designers that are in this space, we have to figure out how to make it easier, easier to install, easier to operate, easier to clean, we got to look at ... The fact is, is that even within food and bev markets, there's turnover. And the sanitation department's even worse.
Mikkel Svold (13:25):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Steve Voelzke (13:26):
And so if we can make it cleaner and easier just by the very nature of how we design it, that's what we need to do.
Mikkel Svold (13:34):
Just real quick for my internal picture, how does a wash down of overhead, what does that entail? What does it look like?
Steve Voelzke (13:45):
Well, it's different for different ... It depends. It depends on the environment. Sometimes knowing that environment at a level that says, "Okay, so am I going to do a foam type wash down or am I going to do a high-pressure wash down?" We have some types of facilities that are pet food, as an example. And in the pet food, there's a little bit different regulation but it's very similar. But the issue there is there's a dry environment and then a wet environment.
(14:18):
And what ends up happening way up high is you can actually end up with buildup. So instead of even slanted or rounded shapes, you're really looking to minimize your surface area. And so that's a design issue, is that understanding the environment to the point where you understand, what am I trying to install against, or what am I trying to create long term. So sometimes it's a sloped surface that you need, and sometimes that sloped surface is actually more surface area so more buildup can happen.
(14:51):
So it's really, it's understanding the environment and then understanding how can we design the right product at the right time because there's not one ... If it was easy, it'd already be done. That's where we have to look at it differently. And then the other challenge can be how do we make sure that it does not only electrical standard, how do we align electrical standards with hygienic standards, because they're not always compatible, and so how can we-
Mikkel Svold (15:18):
And water and electricity for one is not usually that compatible.
Steve Voelzke (15:22):
Exactly. For instance, in our environment, we have IP69, which you're familiar with, the European standard IEC standard. And that standard is interesting because it's high pressure, high temperature. Well, you can get a component of a product IP69 rated, but as an installed system, if you don't do it as an installed system, guess what, you're defeating your purpose. If one inch over, if I spray the water in and it gets in, then what does it matter that one component of the overall system was IP69. It doesn't.
(16:03):
And that's really looking out for not a listing, but really looking at what the customer's trying to accomplish and saying, "We can use these environmental listings, but let's use them in the practicality of the way our customer's going to install it." And if we can do it that way, then we're in a position where we're really looking out for what we're trying to accomplish. And that's the thought and the process that needs to happen a little bit different, but it takes communication. It takes getting with a customer, really working with them to say, "What is your problem?"
(16:38):
And then also, it doesn't happen overnight. It happens project after project after project, and it becomes more of an initiative versus just, what should I say, a one-time done. It's a long-term thing.
Mikkel Svold (16:54):
I think the segue from making it from theory to practice, that's a really good segue because our time's actually up already, but in the next episode, you're joining us again and we'll be talking about exactly the practical approaches. What can companies do to mitigate the risks from overhead and how can you take on some of the challenges. And that's what we'll talk about in the next episode.
(17:19):
To the listeners out there, thank you so much for listening. And if you have any questions or comments or ideas for future episodes, do reach out to us. You can find us at podcast@ngi-global.com, and that was podcast@ngi-global.com. And of course, if you liked the episode, share it with your friends or your colleagues and give us a good rating that really helps to spread the word and helps keep the food safe, which is pretty good. I think that's it for now, Steve. Steve Voelzke, thank you so much for joining, and yeah, you guys out there, thank you for listening.
Steve Voelzke (17:55):
Thank you.
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