From Low-Risk to High-Care: The Evolution of Food Production Equipment 

Mikkel Svold (00:08): 

Hello and welcome to Behind Clean Lines, the podcast where we will try and deep dive into what makes food production safe and how we can innovate hygienic design. Today, I want to take a look at what optimizing for hygiene actually looks like for a machine builder, providing equipment for brand owners or food production facilities. 

(00:32): 

Now, hopefully we'll get an understanding of what it takes to take a machine from being able to go into a low-risk area and into a high-risk area, or maybe not the same machine, but how does that development in machine design look. 

(00:49): 

To educate us on this topic, I'm very delighted to welcome today's guest, Mr. Ulrich Thielemann, the founding father of Food Technology Thielemann, and one of the forces behind this transition that they've been going through from creating, I guess, regular machines for food production, to now, some of the state-of-the art, high-tech, high-care machines that can go into food production. Ulrich, welcome to you. 

Ulrich Thielemann (01:14): 

Hello, Mikkel. Thank you for the invitation. Happy to be with you. 

Mikkel Svold (01:20): 

I think if we just start out, we talked about, just briefly before we turned on the microphones, we talked about what does it actually mean or why has the transition been from producing low-care machines or machines for low-care areas that is, to producing machines that can go into high-care areas. Why did you choose that route at all? Why did you choose that development? 

Ulrich Thielemann (01:48): 

First thing, let us be clear, the food production, especially meat handling and processing, is never a low-risk operation, and would be irresponsible to neglect safety and hygienic standards. Food production is really always high risk, but we have these two definitions here now, low risk, which I would define, and very simplified, the production or the processing and packaging of food, which will, before consumption, still be adequately heated to a minimum of 70 degrees centigrade before consumption. 

Mikkel Svold (02:40): 

Yeah. That will be food that goes into the quick kitchen and goes into a pot or a pan- 

Ulrich Thielemann (02:46): 

Regular cooking, yes. 

Mikkel Svold (02:47): 

... before eating. Yeah. 

Ulrich Thielemann (02:51): 

High risk would be the processing, producing, processing, packaging of cooked products, in our case, meat, which will not be heated, adequately heated before consumption. You may eat it cold, straight out of the package, outside the supermarket, you buy it and consume it. No killing of germs, bacteria, et cetera by reheating or cooking. 

(03:31): 

For our range of machinery, we have to, or we can differentiate in low-risk machine, the slicing ... For our range, the slicing of fresh chicken filets, and in high risk, the machines for the production of cooked meat, like pulled meat, pulled pork, pulled chicken, pulled beef, et cetera. We don't differentiate in these categories. Our transition to the high-risk area was a continuous process from low-risk machines to today, also high-risk machines. 

(04:25): 

We've always ... Our motto, our slogan was always, never give a customer a chance to complain, to complain for your design, to complain about equipment used, components used, complain about performance of the machine, complain about hygiene things. 

Mikkel Svold (04:53): 

Have your machines always looked like they do today? 

Ulrich Thielemann (04:56): 

No. 

Mikkel Svold (04:57): 

Or what is the ... 

Ulrich Thielemann (04:59): 

We've always had, let's call them, the simpler version for low risk. An example is the use of stainless-steel motors, for instance. Around 15, 16, 17 years ago, stainless-steel motors came up, became popular, and we immediately decided to go to change from standard motors, which were built, made in cast iron, painted, they had cooling ribs, they had a ventilation, paint, which came off during washing. Cast iron, which then corroded. In cooling ribs, you had an accumulation of product residues, and the ventilator blew everything around your processing plant. 

Mikkel Svold (05:50): 

Not so good.
 

Ulrich Thielemann (05:54): 

Not so good. This was, as I said, never give a customer a reason to complain. 

Mikkel Svold (06:07): 

A reason to complain, yeah.
 

Ulrich Thielemann (06:08): 

We, as a responsible supplier of machinery for the meat industry, started to look into these things. It was for us, common sense to continuously improve our equipment to a higher standard. It was stainless-steel motors. Another very simple example is gas springs, which were long time and still today, painted. Also, the use of standard motors is widely used today, still in plants. In our opinion, high risk for contamination. 

Mikkel Svold (06:53): 

I can't but think, when you choose to roll out these design decisions on your whole product range today, what cost implications does that have for the client, and is it something they are ... Because I'm thinking that it must be more expensive to use, for instance, a stainless-steel motor, but is that something that the clients generally applaud, or is it something they push back on? 

Ulrich Thielemann (07:18): 

They will always applaud, but they're not willing to pay. That's not correct. What you have to do really at the beginning is do a risk assessment. What do you need to change? What do you want to change? What do you need to change? What do customers ask for? What is necessary? What regulations do you have to consider? Yes, then you decide, is it feasible? Do you have the right suppliers also? Very big question. 

(08:05): 

You may want to change something, but you can find the product. How is the pricing? At the end, you have to sum up and decide which way to go. For us, it was a decision, although we have higher prices, we will do it. It is our way of building a machine, and customers appreciated this, and at the end, if they see what they get, they are willing to pay an adequate price. 

Mikkel Svold (08:50): 

When going into this design process or this change process, so to say, did you have any considerations, whether customers would be willing to pay the extra amount, or if the demand from the customer was actually there, or was it just so obvious, or did you have already, use cases out there, or buyer cases, that is? 

Ulrich Thielemann (09:11): 

No, you build a machine, you present a machine, that's what the exhibitions are for. You show what you do, and others maybe not do. Then, you start your discussion with customers. In general, they see the improvements, and they're willing to pay the higher price, but it is also your decision, do you want to sell to everybody who only compares prices, but not the quality? Customers who care for their equipment, for their products and for their customers, again, are willing to go this way and pay the price for this. 

Mikkel Svold (10:05): 

Has it been harder for you to find the customers who are willing to pay for better quality? Is it hard to find those clients, or is it harder to find those clients than find ... I was just about to say, your regular meat production company, I don't know if that exists, but ... 

Ulrich Thielemann (10:23): 

It is harder to find, definitely, but we started with existing customers. We had, in the past, our customers were just in the low-risk area, deboning and packaging meat, maybe still marinating, seasoning and so on, but they grew, they had the demands from supermarkets, from end users to pre-cooked products, to ready meals and finished products. Also, for them, it was a transition. This transition, we did with our existing customers. 

(11:14): 

At this point, a big thanks to our customers who helped us on the way, but we did it together. This was, or is, an easy way of convincing customers, first, of your equipment, what you did, how you did it, and they were willing to go this way, and also pay for it. New customers is always difficult. If you present your price, which may exceed some other prices, and if the potential customer does not compare design and performance of the equipment, you have a bad chance. 

Mikkel Svold (12:04): 

This process of also involving, at that point, your current clients or your current customers, to me, that sounds like there must have been quite a lot of iterations and back and forward in the design process, where you may be prototyping something, and then they come back with feedback. I don't know if this is true 

(12:25): 

... but I was just curious, can you remember any of the things that you started presenting, and then got feedback from, and then ended up changing altogether? 

Ulrich Thielemann (12:38): 

Not really, because you design, best case, together with your customer. Your decisions are also his way of thinking, and his decisions. There's nothing you design, build, throw away and do it from scratch again, no. You have your existing machinery, which was already on a good way. Now, this new design asked for still higher standards, which you discuss with customers. You don't do it alone just on your desk. You need the assistance of the user. 

Mikkel Svold (13:31): 

Yeah. Quite physically, you would be in the same room pulling up ideas- 

Ulrich Thielemann (13:36): 

Correct, yes. 

Mikkel Svold (13:37): 

... and drawing some of the lines. Yeah. What makes that process hard, of developing something new? What is typically, the hard nuts to crack? 

Ulrich Thielemann (13:54): 

Very often, customer's ideas and regulatory bodies, they work in theory, yeah? 

Mikkel Svold (14:08): 

Okay. 

Ulrich Thielemann (14:12): 

To transition this theory to a real product is sometimes very difficult. Ideas are good, but you have to make ... Out of this idea, you have to build components. You have to design a machine, you have to do an assembly. This has to work out. This is very often, the difficulty, the demand on one side, and putting this demand into a feasible design on the machine. 

Mikkel Svold (14:58): 

Is it usually a question of the customer wanting a lot of things, or a lot of functionality, whereas, you as a machine builder would be, physics doesn't allow that, or cost doesn't allow that, or is it the other way around? 

Ulrich Thielemann (15:18): 

Demands are always very high. If possible, a machine should be able to do everything, at the best price, of course, in the fastest time, and with the best hygienic standards. To put all this under one hat is difficult sometimes. You always find a way, how to get around these things, and present an acceptable result. 

Mikkel Svold (15:57): 

Now, just here, before we round off, do you have any developments ongoing right now? If so, what are you trying to put into your machines, or what is the future of your machines as of now? 

Ulrich Thielemann (16:18): 

We have these two categories of low risk and high risk. As I said, our low-risk machines are not built any different from the high-risk machines. We use the same components, we use the same design. There is no difference today in these machines. 

(16:44): 

The cooked area, high risk is growing very strong. The use of cooked products, pre-cooked products, ready meals is steadily growing, and the demand for new machinery, which we are not even thinking of today, is always there. First thing, there's demand from the market to our customers, potential customers. They have to see, how can we do this? How can we do this product? 

(17:27): 

Then, they come to the machine suppliers who want to do this product, how can we do it? The machine may not exist yet. You wait for the product. In our case, at least, it is, we don't build a machine and sell a machine, and the customer then starts, what can I do with it? What product can I do on the machine? No, first, there's the product, and second, then there will be the machine to do this product. 

Mikkel Svold (17:57): 

Yeah. In reality, your development is very market driven as I understand. 

Ulrich Thielemann (18:01): 

Only market driven, to be honest. Yes. Only market driven. 

Mikkel Svold (18:04): 

Yeah. Not just market driven, as in the food producers, what they want, but also actually what t
he end consumer wants, so it's driven by the actual end market. 

Ulrich Thielemann (18:16): 

The end consumer details ... Or the big corporations. 

Mikkel Svold (18:18): 

That's really interesting. 

Ulrich Thielemann (18:22): 

There are quite a few big names, big players who develop a product, if needed or not. They develop a product that they want it. 

Mikkel Svold (18:36): 

Yeah, they tell us what's needed. 

Ulrich Thielemann (18:38): 

Exactly. 

Mikkel Svold (18:38): 

That's very good. Ulrich Thielemann, Thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your story, and some of the complications that has had. 

(18:49): 

To you dear listeners out there, if you found this interesting, and if you have any questions, of course, please reach out to us. You can do that at podcast@ngi-global.com. That was podcast@ngi-global.com. If you have any ideas or anything, just email us straight away. 

(19:08): 

And of course, if you like this episode and want to follow on next episode and newer episodes, please do hit that subscribe button and share it with your friends and colleagues, if you think they would find it interesting, too. Okay. 

(19:21): 

With that, I'm just about to say, thank you so much. 

Ulrich Thielemann (19:24): 

Mikkel, thank you. It was nice speaking with you. Thank you.